Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner

Verdict

Let us now hear the verdict from on high:

"Kennedy did not say 'I am a donut'. Period."

So much for "anyone can edit" on Wikipedia! What a joke. Some administrator gives their verdict, "PERIOD," and after that no further debate is allowed. My junior high school German teacher, who was a native of Germany, is the person I first heard the jelly doughnut story from, so no, it is not merely a non-German invention. But I guess it's pointless to discuss it on this authoritarian website. Troglo (talk) 23:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The verdict is not from administrators ... it is from the numerous native Germans that happen to be editors on the English wikipedia as well. And yes, it is pretty pointless to argue unless you can get your junior high teacher online - notably it's at the core of these friend of a friend tales to say that someone once met some native German who told something - although in fact it is many years back and the memory may have blurred by a fair amount. Guidod (talk) 23:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a kernel of truth in the story that makes it convincing enough that many Germans who hear it believe it. But that alone doesn't make it true. We have academic publications explaining why it isn't true. The native speakers of German who edit this article find these explanations absolutely convincing. Some of the reasons:

• On the recording of Kennedy's speech, you can hear that nobody laughs after any of the several times he says the sentence. The audience only laughs after he jokingly thanks his interpreter for 'translating' the German sentence to German: "I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!"
• It's a well known fact among Germans that the local expression for "Berliner" (jam-filled doughnut) is "[Berliner] Pfannkuchen". If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. E.g., there is a type of large cookie known as "Amerikaner" in German. Even if it were called "American cookie" in the US, certainly nobody there would even think of abbreviating it to "American". But it's not even known as "American cookie", it's known as "black and white cookie".
• The lay-linguistic analysis saying that the word "ein" was wrong in the sentence, although convincing to many native speakers, is simply wrong. This is what a professional German linguist says (and we have none who contradicts it), and it's also what Google Books searches for parallel phrases with "Berliner" replaced by "Bremener", "Münchener" etc. (nouns for people from other cities) indicate. Using "ein" or dropping it does make a difference, but it is a subtle nuance and in this speech "ein" was even more correct. On this talk page you can see where I described this nuance based on my own sense of language and Google searches, before I found the professional linguistic analysis that says essentially the same thing.

Examples of where this is discussed intelligently in German include the German Wikipedia and this blog post by a German linguist who was born in Berlin. He quotes Michael Jennings of Princeton University as follows:

After you wrote to me, I did a bit of informal research myself — talking to lots of friends in Berlin. And their responses were all over the map. Certainly the most common and accepted way to say “I’m a resident of Berlin” is “Ich bin Berliner,” i.e. without the indefinite article. But, for many speakers, it is by no means incorrect or ungrammatical to say “Ich bin ein Berliner.” Some of my respondents in fact applauded Kennedy on his nuanced use of German, since for them the sentence without the indefinite article implies that the speaker is a native Berliner, while the sentence with “ein” suggests either more recent residence in Berlin or even solidarity with its inhabitants (which was clearly Kennedy/Sorenson’s intention).

Then he explains that the nuance is actually slightly different. Kennedy had to use "ein" because he wasn't accidentally a Berliner by virtue of living there, but wanted to express that he felt that he belonged to the category of Berliners. While even professionals have trouble expressing this and leaving out the word "ein" would have been no real problem, the German native speaker who wrote the sentence for Kennedy must have felt intuitively that with "ein" it was better style. He certainly never thought about the theoretical ambiguity. Language is ambiguous all the time, and we never have problems resolving ambiguities from context. German is no different from English in this respect. If a German told you in English "I'm a Hamburger", you wouldn't be confused, and after the tenth time you would probably stop finding it funny. Hans Adler 05:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

And I'd like to add that the "ein" certainly also gives emphasis to the implication of solidatiry mentioned adove. Alandeus (talk) 07:48, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

For anyone *still* not convinced, there is a very nice video explaining the myth on YouTube, featuring an excerpt of the Kennedy speech and a real Berliner Pfannkuchen: How edible was JFK? Hans Adler 08:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM

By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM, as in jam doughnut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.211.202 (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

But the more common term is jelly doughnuts even if there is jam in there. See the the difference in Google hits and countless references to this urban legend for example. Will have to correct everything back to jelly. Alandeus (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

This is primarily an American myth, and Americans call jam jelly. If the definitions at Fruit preserves#Jam and Fruit preserves#Jelly can be believed, there is actually a slight semantic difference. The kind of jam found in Berliners does not contain pieces of fruit, so according to those definitions it would be jelly, not jam. Hans Adler 20:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

"jelly" is not more common - only in the US. There is an entire English speaking world out there. Although some may call it jelly, they are incorrect to do so. It is jam. Jam can indeed be "smooth style" i.e. not containing large pieces of fruit and is indeed often contained in doughnuts. Jam Doughnut is the correct term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.56.82 (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Reverting to jelly. Reminder (see above): The more common term is jelly doughnuts and the countless references to this urban legend are jelly. And: This is primarily an American myth. Finally, this article is in US English. “Jam doughnut” is therefore not the correct term.Alandeus (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

In American English, jam and jelly are simply different things. Jelly is fruit juice with gelatin or pectin added to thicken it. Jam is mashed fruit with pectin, and it is not strained. However, "Jelly Donut" includes all filled donuts, sometimes excluding "cream" fillings. (cream fillings are often A jam-filled donut is still a "jelly donut," but "toast and jam" would always have jam. This isn't any more confusing to Americans than "ich bin ein Berliner" would be to a Berliner. ;) Etymology is not authoritative, usage is.76.105.216.34 (talk) 05:24, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

It is not "more common". The fact that many in the US use the incorrect word is irrelevant. What the doughnut contains is in fact JAM. This is an inescapable fact. You cannot just "declare" jelly to be in more common usage, which in any case is irrelevant. The correct word is Jam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.227.184 (talk • contribs)

it is more common. Any more changes will be treated like vandalism. Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Who elected you jelly furher? Jelly IS NOT MORE COMMON! It may be to YOU, and a number of others, but you are all wrong. There is an whole world outside the US. Many people speak English. To the overwhelming majority JAM is the correct term. Neither you nor the US are the centre of the universe. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. 178.208.196.33

Again, the myth is of US origin, so it is named by its original name. Any modifications will be treated as vandalism, just as it was handled in the years before. Guidod (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

AGAIN, the origin of the myth is irrelevant. The word in common useage in the English language for the foodstuff concerned is undoubtedly JAM. Jelly is an entirely different substance. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. Stop being so US-centric. Stop dictating to others. 178.208.196.33

Stop dictating how others use their language - you have even changed quoted speech, so you have modified history. Note that there is no US-English wikipedia, there is just one covering all the flavours of English. If there is a story based in a specific region that its style of English is being given priority - you may put explanations in parenthesis for other regions (like we do for metric measures) but just converting all references of "jelly" to "jam" is no option. Guidod (talk) 16:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

from a native German

If somebody in germany says "I am a Berliner" (Ich bin ein Berliner) nobody thinks of a doughnut. So it is clear in germany nobody laughed when he said "Ich bin ein Berliner." This joke is a completely american invention. Is is not known in Germany.
Jms (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

There are differences between German as spoken in Berlin, and elsewhere. Do we have a comment from a well-educated Berliner, that should put an end to the matter?Royalcourtier (talk) 20:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• sigh* YES. Read the rest of this talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.4.8 (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

i was stationed in Mannheim in USArmy 1983 and the tall German woman who taught us the rudiments of the german language said that due to the New England accent the Berliner sounded like the term for a Ba-lin-a a type of jelly donut,. But due to the gravity of the situation, and the German people's warm reception of people trying to pronouce correctly, even if not perfect from foreigners 2600:6C4E:97F:F65E:1464:E66C:AA32:15CE (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

to the former Manheimer, the words berliner (citizen of Berlin) and Berliner (doughnot) are pronounced exactly the same. There is no difference. I am German. 84.215.194.30 (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Removed reference to "Management Review"

I've removed the following text from the article:

The origin of the misconception is obscure. An early sighting occurred in volume 55 of Management Review (1966):

John F. Kennedy's famous words "Ich bin ein Berliner" created confused reactions among his German audience. What he meant, of course, was "I am a citizen of Berlin". What he actually said came closer to "I am a doughnut". Because the translation followed the English construction word for word, it included the article "ein" for "a". "Ein berliner," in German, is a type of cruller - a flat doughnut.

The editor has been misled by the way Google Books dates periodicals: it dates the entire series based on the date of the first issue. In fact, it is apparent that this issue of Management Review is from the mid-to-late 1980s -- probably mid 1986, based on an advertisement for a conference in June of that year, which can easily be found by searching for the string "1986" within the volume.. Grover cleveland (talk) 08:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Article POV

I don't want to comment on whether Kennedy make a grammatical error in German or not, but the tone of the article as a whole is POV. To say that the "speech is considered one of Kennedy's best, both a notable moment of the Cold War and a high point of the New Frontier" is unreferenced confused and unencyclopaedic. A speech may be at a "notable moment", and a high point of the "New Frontier". That may make a speech important, but does not make it better or the best. To say that it was "a great morale boost for West Berliners" is simply unreferenced opinion. Unless these opinions can be adequately supported by credible references, they should be deleted.125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Grammar query

Would someone be able to explain, why it is "ein" and not "einen"? 50.158.229.206 (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Gleichsetzungsnominativ [2] Guidod (talk) 03:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Because "ein" (a) is in nominative case, as the predicate of "Ich" in "Ich bin" (I am): I am a Berliner. "Einen" is in accusative, e.g. in the following sentence as the verb object: Ich habe einen Berliner = I have a Berliner

Since English has very little conjugation in nouns, pronouns, etc., the above may be difficult to absorb. The same is also the root cause for common mistakes such as "between you and I" (rather than "between you and me") similar to, perhaps, the grammatically wrong pattern "It's me" which is universally used instead of the pedantic "It is I". The latter, of course, sounds entirely natural in expressions such as "I is I who claims that...".

POV and Grammar

Just a brief comment about the final sentence in the introduction. "To Germans his words were received with sincerity, very endearing and very uniquely American!" Clearly this is not an objective POV, especially with no citation or reference. Both uses of the word "very" are meaningless and unnecessary. Finally, An exclamation point has no place outside of a quote in a Wikipedia article. Dkelber (talk) 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Removal

   The following ended the lead 'graph: "The quotation was just short of five months before Kennedy was assassinated later that same year." Presumably, this is accurate, but no relevance to the topic is cited. There may be a place for relating this juxtaposition, most obviously in his bio. If there is significant delusion about a causal connection, that might be at least a dubious reason for its inclusion. In the context where i removed it, it must be treated as a bizarre tangent, and some editors might well take on the periodic checking for its reintroduction without a substantial consensus on a specific valuable purpose it could serve. Jerzy (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

The phrase and the legend in fiction and popular culture

• In the X-Files episode "Schizogeny", Mulder erroneously tells a teen with the poster "Ich bin ein Auslander" (mistakenly spelled Auslander, correct spelling is Ausländer) that when Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" he was saying "I am a Berliner ", leading to the teen's response: "Who's Kennedy?".

I have always had a memory of Mulder saying 'Did you know that when JFK said 'Ich bin ein Berliner' he was actually saying 'I am a cocktail sausage'.' Different episode perhaps?Robbmonster (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Robbmonster's right. That IS what he actually says, in that episode. However, he also mistranslates "auslander" as "outsider", when it actually means "foreigner/outlander". Does anyone know from where Mulder gets the cocktail sausage thing? I can't seem to find it anywhere else.Mousenight (talk) 08:13, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

• "Ich Bin Ein Auslander" is also the name of the opening track on the 1994 album Dos Dedos Mis Amigos by UK group Pop Will Eat Itself.

• During a concert in Berlin on November 3, 1996, Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam said to the crowd: "I don't know what to say so I'll just say this, I am a donut."

• British comedian Eddie Izzard talks about John Kennedy's "I am a doughnut" speech in his stand-up act Dress to Kill.

• In Terry Pratchett's book Monstrous Regiment (p. 328 of the hardcover), Samuel Vimes makes a speech in which he says "Ze chzy Brogocia proztfik!", intending this to mean "I am a citizen of Borogravia!". What he actually says is "I am a cherry pancake!".

• The legend also appears in Berlin Game, the first book in Len Deighton's Game, Set, Match trilogy. Deighton describes German cartoonists drawing "talking doughnuts" the next day, but there is no historical evidence for this.

• The short story "Told You So" by Esther M. Friesner in the 1992 alternate-history anthology Alternate Kennedys has Kennedy being granted the ability to have his every utterance become reality and being turned into a jelly donut when he says the famous phrase.

• In an episode of the cartoon Animaniacs a frustrated Abraham Lincoln is trying to prepare the Gettysburg Address, and considers opening with "Ich bin ein Gettysburger."

• According to British comedian Alexei Sayle, prior to the speech Kennedy wrapped himself in black plastic. He then mounted the podium and proclaimed: "Ich bin ein Binliner".

• In an episode of Seinfeld, Jerry makes a reference to the "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech when Elaine displays her interest in JFK Jr. Commentary subtitles to the DVD mistakenly report the "jelly doughnut" legend as fact.

• Artist Achim Mentzel released a CD titled Ich bin ein Berliner with a track of the same name.

• The British band 'Blurt has a song about this called "Bullets For You" on the album with the same title.

• The famous parts of the speech are heavily sampled in the The Passage's song "brd usa ddr jfk" from their 1983 album Enflame.

• In an episode of The Tick, the Tick is sent to Antwerp, Belgium and ends up proclaiming "Ich bin ein Berliner." to a stupefied audience.

• In 1983, then U.S. Vice President George H. W. Bush while visiting Mödlareuth exclaimed, "Ich bin ein Mödlareuther!".

• In episode 7 of Sealab 2021, "Little Orphan Angry", the orphan boy says of Griff's banking scam, "Ich bin impressed!"
  • A later episode of Sealab, "Craptastic Voyage", features Tornado Shanks with a tiny submarine in his brain that crashes into his language center. Shanks promptly mutters the line: "Ich bin ein Berliner" to which John F. Kennedy shows up stating: "Hey, hey, that's my line, tumorface!"

• In the book The Year of Secret Assignments, on page 193 & 194 (page 217 in the book's alternate version Finding Cassie Crazy), there is a paragraph as follows:

  "Well, what happened was, a former president of the United States went to Berlin, Germany, and he shouted at the crowd: 'Ich bin ein Berliner!!' Now, for some reason which I cannot fathom, he was trying to say, 'I am a resident of Berlin!!' (He wasn't.) But, for some reason which I also cannot fathom, he was actually saying: 'I am a jelly doughnut!'

• In the episode "Simpson Tide" of The Simpsons Abraham Simpson recalls the time when he was on the PT 109 with John F. Kennedy and heard him say, "Ich bin ein Berliner". Abe then yells to his shipmates, "He's a Nazi! Get him!" and he and the crew beat him up. In another episode "Burns Verkaufen der Kraftwerk", Mayor Quimby (himself somewhat of a parody of Kennedy) in an effort to welcome German businessmen, says, "Ich bin ein Springfielder!".

• In an episode of The Mask The Animated Series (Flight As A Feather), during a ceremony declaring Barvariaville, a German-themed neighborhood near Edge City, as the exclusive vendor of pretzels for all city functions, Mayor Tilton says, "Ich bin ein Barvariavillian.

• In the film Blades of Glory this phrase can be heard at the beginning of the musical sequence for the double figure skating pair of Stranz Van Waldenberg (dressed as John F. Kennedy) and Fairchild Van Waldenberg (dressed as Marilyn Monroe).

• In "The Baby Shower", an episode of Seinfeld, George states, "Ich bin ein sucker."

• The English comedian Eddie Izzard references the urban legend in his show 'Dress to Kill'.

• Political humorist Stephen Colbert quotes "I am a jelly doughnut" on The Colbert Report of August 18, 2009 in reporting on the Federal elections in Germany in September. He mentions the Berlin candidate Vera Lengsfeld who exposes her cleavage to campaign. Video here: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/247056/august-18-2009/tip-wag---german-campaign--russian-dogs---flying-rabbis Alandeus (talk) 15:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• In an episode of the 1990s American television series Profiler, the villian says to his father, "Ich bin Vanderhorn". (70.25.69.63)

• It also appears in the third episode "Ich Bin Ein Berliner" of the US television series Pan Am. 15:57, 18 October 2011‎ Metre01

Discussion of German Wikipedia

The article presently has The myth entered the German Wikipedia article "Ich bin Berliner" in May 2005 brought over from the English version where it had been discussed since the creation of the article in October 2001. It was already marked as an urban legend at the time in 2005. The German version settled on a section title "misconception in the english-speaking world" (Missverständnis im englischsprachigen Raum) by January 2007. with both of these sentences being cited with permalinks to the German Wikipedia. This is a use of WP:PRIMARY sources, and while WP:CIRCULAR allows citation of Wikipedia to discuss Wikipedia, it also notes Wikipedia or the sister project is a primary source in this case and may be used following the policy for primary sources. Any such use should avoid original research, undue emphasis on Wikipedia's role or views, and inappropriate self-reference. The article text should clarify how the material is sourced from Wikipedia to inform the reader about the potential bias. As such, this article would benefit from a WP:SECONDARY source to show that this isn't undue, to properly contexualize it, etc. I have not deleted anything, just requested there be an additional reference other than Wikipedia itself, but this whole paragraph seems to be WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and full of WP:SYNTHESIS. Umimmak (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

crowd size?

I may be overlooking something but it appears that one part of the article says 150,000 people were in attendance, and in another, 450,000 - start of paragraph 4 in introduction, and first paragraph of Delivery section. Of if these numbers refer to different groups rather than different estimates, perhaps that could be clarified? Rosie Willis (talk) 00:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)